Curse

IxChel · Aug 31, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

This thread is to to discuss ways to fix a very over-powered skill -- Ether
Renewal. It's not about discussing why people do/don't want to nerf,
how to counter ER, or anything else. It's about listing options to make
ER less abusable for smiting builds, and more attractive to primary
elementalists. If you don't agree that ER is broken and/or don't have
constructive thoughts on the topic, please post somewhere else.

I guess it's also time to collect Yes/No support for this post. If you've
previously posted; rather than post again, could you just edit your post
to put in a Yea/Nea and if you have time, write a small story that explains
why you feel strongly about your vote. Thanks.

...

As I see it, Ether Renewal is too powerful since it favors a quickly-cast
spells, rather than the more traditional longer-casting and mana
expensive Elementalist skills. The specific problems with Ether
Renewal include:

1. It favors quick-casting spells, preferably ones /w minimal recharge.
It is far superior when used /w protection monk spells than it is with
spells like Flare or longer cast spells like Maelstrom.

2. It mixes in health restoration when the primary goal of the spell
seems to be 'ether' (energy) recovery. It is already powerful enough
in the energy recovery without including the health restoration mix-in.

3. As compared to other energy stealing/recovery spells it is slightly
overpowered (by about a factor of 5 for smiters); and it is a tad
underpowered for those casting high-energy long-cast spells.

The goal of this suggestion is to make ER more attractive to the primary
elementalist and less attractive to smite protection spell spam. To
derive an effective skill description, let's totally remove the health
recovery aspect from the skill. Its secondary effect and it really
complicates determining an appropriate ballance.

Currently, this spell provides 4en per enchantment per spell cast; for
a smiter using 5en spells, this is an 80% return of spell energy per
enchantment. If you assume 3 enchantments plus the ER itself, you
have a 320% recovery of energy spent. During a 10 second period,
you can spam 5en Draw Conditions alternated with Reversal of Fortune
once per second -- or 10 times. That is 50en spent, and thus 150
energy returned (160 - 10en cost for EN). So, this has generated an
average of at least 3-5en per second (see below for a chart if you
don't get this).

For a base-line spell appraisal; let's compare this to Energy Drain and
Mantra of Recovery. At 12 inspiration, ED steals 18 energy for 5en in 1sec.
Given a recharge of 20s, the energy recovered via drain is about 13/20,
or .75 energy per second. For Mantra of Recovery, the rate is a bit
higher. With a cast charge of 10, with 30 returned in 20s, you get 20en
in 20s or about 1 energy per second. Both of these skills have drawbacks.
Energy Drain is punishing, but it is also conditional -- you can drain
someone with 0 energy and get 0 return. Like Ether Renewal, Mantra
of Recovery is also an enchantment, but unlike ER, if the enchantment is
removed at any time before the 20s, you lost your entire (not partial)
investment. Therefore, it seems like the trend for elite energy recover is
in the neighborhood of 1en per second; each method having a plus or
minus depending upon risk and side-effects.

Let's verify this 1en per second "average" for these sorts of spells. In the
Necromancer line, the closest equivalent is Offering of Blood. With a
sacrifice of 10% health, you gain 18-5 or 13 energy every 15 seconds.
This is slightly less than 1 energy per second -- more or less equivlaent
to Energy Drain or Mantra of Recall. In ED, you can lose your investment
if your opponent lacks energy. For MoR, you can lose your investment if
someone removes your enchantment. For this particular spell, you can't
lose the energy -- but you pay a price in health. Regardless, this energy
return is far far less than 3-5en per second of Ether Renewal. Either these
energy management skills need a serious buff, or Ether Renewal needs a
leash put on it.

So, what are the reasons for why a Energy Storage elite should be higher
than 1en per second? First, it is from more of a support line, where
inspiration has many more direct usage skills; so let's say this is worth
a bit more energy per second. Second, this skill depends upon the caster
having active enchantments. Perhaps these additional conditions should
make an upper end of 2en per second?

Therefore, given the 30 seconds between casting Ether Renewal,
the energy return should be about 60 energy. Let's assume that a given
elementalist has 2-3 enchants on them (Fire Attunement, Conjure Flame,
or Aura of Restoration). When you mix-in this enchantment, that is 3-4
enchantments or about 15-20 energy per enchantment. During the 10
seconds of cast time, an Elementalist can easily get off two 25 en spells,
perhaps 5 10en spells, or perhaps 7-9 5en spells. Let's say this is a total
energy usage of 50en over that 10 sec. This amounts to a 30-40% return
on energy per enchantment per energy point spent; they spent 50en
and get back 15-20 per enchantment.

Fixed Ether Renewal {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 10-30% of the
energy cost of the spell back for each Enchantment you have on you.

So how nerfed is this?

Suppose your a standard el/mo smiter, with Zealot's Fire, Balthazar's, and
Aura of Restoration on you (4 enchantments once you add ER). Further
suppose you spam 9 RoF/Draw spells during that 10s (.25 cast plus .75
after-cast). You currently get 4*4*9 or 144 energy back (or 4.5 en/sec).
Under this proposal, you'd get 9*5*4*.3 or 54 energy return. It's a
serious, serious nerf to a smiting monk. However, 54-10 is 44 energy;
and 44 energy / 30 second recharge is a 1.5 energy per second. This
is much more in-line with other elite energy management techniques,
about a 50% bonus for carrying those enchantments.

Suppose, on the other hand, your an Fire Elementalist who uses a Mark
of Rodgort (3s,25en), Searing Heat (3s, 25en), Immolate (1s,10en)
sequence. Under the current ER, you get 3*4*4 or 48 energy, which
amounts to a 1.6 energy per second. Under this new proposal, you'd get
(25+25+10)*4*.3 or 72 energy; or about 2.3 energy per second.

In summary, this proposal is a decent buff to existing Elementalist
skill-lines, but a serious nerf to the broken smiting monk build. See
below for an alternative proposal which is less sensitive to the number
of enchantments you have on you.

...

Dazzler · Aug 31, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

You should not be comparing it to Mantra, as mantra is a stance and thus comes with all the advantages of stances: only 1 (maybe 2?) skills exist in the game that can counter a stance, assuming your foe knows you are in one. Can be turned on instantly, even while you are performing another action...etc. Mantra also does not require you to take any actions once used.

Whereas ER is subject to interruption and disenchanting. If you are running a Mesmer, why not wait for your opponent to cast ER, and then hit him with Inspired Enchantment? That would be perfect if you were actually an E/Me.

Not to mention, Mantra is a Mesmer skill and ER is a Elementalist skill. The 2 professions have different focuses and so their elites, while serving similar functions, will never be equivalent for what they do.

Ether Renewal's effect is just fine the way it is. If you really want to nerf it, just increase it's recharge time.

entropy · Aug 31, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I'd have to disagree with the fact that ether renewal is fine the way it is. The fact is that its basically fills your entire energy pool in much less than 10 seconds. The recharge should be increased(i can't believe im saying this i am totally screwing my farming build lol). Increasing the time would totally nerf it. 60 seconds is way too long. I would say that if they changed it to 60 seconds they should increase the duration and lower the effect. 5 energy and i believe 20 health per enchantment is huge. lower it to a max of like 2 energy per enchantment and have it last like 15-20 seconds. And with ether renewal most likely the top enchantment it could be removed easily making it less effective in pvp.

MSecorsky · Aug 31, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

ER supports elementalists perfectly as is. Shoot of your AoE, flip ER on, used little ones while the AoEs recharge, repeat. It's PERFECT on my hydromancer... can flip out Deep Freeze and Maelstrom, Ice Shards, with Water Attunement up flip on ER and Ice Spear to get most of my juice back. Big spells are almost ready now...

Maiyn · Aug 31, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Why should ether renewal not give back health? I don't understand that really...... It's an energy storage skill... like aura of restoration....

timmo567 · Aug 31, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Just so you know IxChel, I agree with you 100%.

90% of the tombs groups are 2 W/R or W/E, 2 E/Mo, 3 monks then A Mes/Nec or a Nec/Mes

Gets boring very fast...

Mysterial · Sep 01, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maiyn

Why should ether renewal not give back health? I don't understand that really...... It's an energy storage skill... like aura of restoration....

Because the name of the attribute is Energy Storage, not Health Storage?

Seriously though, all it does is unbalance the skill further because it literally leaves Ether Renewal with no drawbacks - you're unlikely to take more damage than you're healing, especially if combined with Aura of Restoration. The only counter at all is enchantment removal, but since you can regenerate so fast using it, it's more effective for foes to simply wait until the spell wears off to attack. Personally, I think that any skill whose counter strategy is "pick a different target" is overpowered.

BTW, Mantra of Recall, despite its name, is an Enchantment, not a Stance. Its drawback is that the enemy can remove it, most likely when you're already at near-full energy and therefore not going to gain much benefit from it. Similarly, Offering of Blood requires health, Ether Prodigy has so many drawbacks it's rarely worth using, Energy Drain requires a target with energy, Elemental Attunement requires you to not be interrupted and has a huge recharge, etc etc etc. They all have drawbacks - except Ether Renewal.

FWIW, Ix, I think that's a pretty creative way to fix the skill to have its intended effect without ruining it like simply reducing the numbers would.

Dzan · Sep 01, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Nerf the good skills until Flare is good in the Tombs, and then nerf Flare. Is that your ideal GW environment?

Mysterial · Sep 01, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Nerf the good skills until Flare is good in the Tombs, and then nerf Flare. Is that your ideal GW environment?

By definition, a balanced environment contains no 'good' skills (or all 'good' skills, depending on how you choose to look at it), so... yes.

IxChel · Sep 01, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grigori Sokolov

It lasts 10 seconds, thats 10 draw conditions at the max. Its not that good.

Actually -- it is that good. Let's give you the benifit of the doubt and
say you can only spam 9 reversal/draw spells in that 10 seconds -- the
numbers are still very impressive, even when you take the energy
recovery and average it over the 30 second cooldown period.

Code:

 # of ench  /  en per / total / less-ten / energy-per-second
      1          4        4*9     36-10      0.866 (26/30)
      2          8        72       62           2.02
      3          12      108     98           3.26
      4          16      144    134          4.46
      5          20      180    170         5.96

At the minimum you're running 2 enchancements, Ether Renewal and
Zealot's Fire. Even at that level, you're already at 2 energy per second
regeneration -- that's 2x as nice as Offering of Blood or Energy Drain.

The more common build is ER, ZF, and Aura of Restoration. This is 3.2
energy per second -- 3x as nice as Offering of Blood or Energy Drain.

If you add in Kenetic Armour -- even at zero Earth -- you're talking about
4.46 energy per second. Sure, 1/4 your skill bar is now enchancements;
however, you've now reached a point where you can't possibly run out
of energy -- not even for a split second.

With Res Signet and Draw Conditions and Reveral of Fortune,
you've still got one more slot to fill -- Balthazar's Aura fits the bill. If
youcast it on yourself right before your Ether Renewal, it will bring you
up to 5 active enchantments, or 6 energy per sec. But we don't need
to argue about how absurd it gets from here. The skill is already
broken at 3 enchantments, where the energy return is clearly 3x what
an equivalent spell from any other line will give you.

Iraqalypse Now · Sep 01, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

ether renewal is rather overpowered, its pretty much been the only elite on my ele's skill bar since she capped it... I have expirimented with other random things like thunderclap (sucks) and uhh... well, thats about it, and I only tried for an hour or so today for when I was ele/nec capping virulence...

IxChel · Sep 01, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Assuming you want to give "around" one energy per second for the Elite
slot and that you want to give a "bonus" to those who carry more than
one enchantment, perhaps there is another skill reification.

Let's start by modifying Elemental Attunement. EA lasts for twice as long
(22.5 seconds every 30 second period), and gives you a 50% return on
your spell cost, but it is limited to only elemental spells. So, it would be
reasonable to have ER give you a 105% return in the 10s window:
effectively a "free cast". Further, EA has an additional bonus -- it can work
with any skill. So, we have less skill restrictions, and the ability for
this skill to support a "spike" for 10s. Stratigically, energy now is
more valueable then energy later -- so the 105% in 10s is more valueable
than 50% over 22s. Therefore, some sort of "price" needs to be paid.
That price is to scale the energy return based on the number of active
enchants. Furthermore, for balance with skills from other lines, you
want the "center" of the energy regeneration to be in-line with the
other energy-based skills; about 1 energy per second.

Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for
each enchantment on you.

To help visualize the proposal, here is a chart that assumes 50en will
be spent during the 10s period and that the energy gain is averaged
over the 30 second cooldown period.

Code:

 # of ench --  percent -- energy-per-second
      1         75%         0.91
      2         90%         1.16
      3         105%       1.41
      4         120%      1.66
      5         135%       1.91

      ((50 * (.60 + N*.15))-10)/30

As it so happens, with 3 enchantments, this proposal has identical impact
as the first proposal. The smiters get a really huge nerf, and the fire
elementalist who uses big spells gets a decent buff. The smiter gets
9*5*1.2 or 54 energy (same as before), and the Elementalist gets
(25+25+10)*1.2 or 72 energy back (also the same).

The main difference with this proposal is that it's more generous when you
only have 2 enchantments up, and a bit less generous when you have 4 or
more enchantments up. The first proposal is both harsher to those who
are only carrying two enchantments, and more open to abuse if you've got
monks spamming enchantments to build a huge stack. Therefore, as a
whole -- although it is a bit more complicated -- I prefer the second option.

In summary; for the casting to be "free", you have to have two additional
enchantments (beyond ER) -- above that you get a nice return for your
diligence . You can still get a serious amount of energy with more
enchantments, but the higher you stack them enchantments, the harder
the upkeep will be and the more painful rend will be. This alternaitve
addresses:

1. the use of many low-energy spells vs a few high-energy spells

2. giving a bonus for enchantments, an incentive to carry more than
two enchantments, but nothing uber "godly" for 3+

Theos · Sep 01, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Why not give ER the same "drawback" that EA has? Would this not remove much of its abuse with smite, if not entirely? This would probably be a significant nerf but would give the ele lines something be used with.

Since my idea is somewhat severe, I think I like version #2 the most.

timmo567 · Sep 01, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for
each enchantment on you.

Sounds great to me. So sick of smiters.... (I'm tempted to make one, but I'm not really into pressing 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 over and over, doesn't really appeal to me)

Rey Lentless · Sep 01, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Why not give ER the same "drawback" that EA has? Would this not remove much of its abuse with smite, if not entirely? This would probably be a significant nerf but would give the ele lines something be used with.

I'd rather ether prodigy be worth using, instead of just making ether nenewal crap too.

IxChel · Sep 01, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

ER supports elementalists perfectly as is. Shoot of your AoE, flip ER on, used little ones while the AoEs recharge, repeat. It's PERFECT on my hydromancer... can flip out Deep Freeze and Maelstrom, Ice Shards, with Water Attunement up flip on ER and Ice Spear to get most of my juice back. Big spells are almost ready now...

Ok. During 10 second period you cna only get off 5 ice shards since
the cast time is 1.0 and you have a .75 aftercast. Likewise you can
only get-off Deep Freeze and Maelstrom together in a 10s period.

Let's break this down into a table /w 3 cases, based on the number
of enchantments (including ER):

Code:

   number of         spam-spear         spam-spear        freeze+maelstrom                  
   enchants           current                 proposal #2        proposal #2
   4                         6*4*4=80            25*1.20=30          60
   3                         6*4*3=72            25*1.05=26          52
   2                         6*4*2=48            25*0.90=22          44

So, yes, it's a nerf with proposal #2 as is. You're short about 20 energy
per 30 second cycle, even if you switch to using freeze+maelstrom
during the 10s period. This difference is about 0.6en per second.

Even at 3 enchantments (2 plus ether renewal), you're at 1.4en per second;
this is about 2x more energy per second than Energy Drain or Offering
of Blood. If you buffed the chart 30%, you'd get that .6en/sec, but you'd
then make ER about 3x more effective than ED or OB. Personally, I think
having to have two additional enchantments and the setup is probably
worth 2x the energy per second, since its a good amount of stuff to get
right. However, i'm not sure if it's worth 3x your average energy
management elite. Your thoughts?

As a related thought -- Ensign has been stating for some time now that
Elementalist spells, as a whole, are a good deal less powerful than they
should be (or cost a bit too much). Since Ether Renewal allows you to
use a skill ballanced for Elementalist skills /w skills from other lines,
I think this discrepancy is showing up here. Perhaps your .6en/sec more
accurately reflects the lack-of-power that elementalist skills have relative
to their energy/time costs? Perhaps the energy per Elementalist spell
could be reduced some; and coorespondingly the energy storage bonus
could be reduced a bit -- this would keep the balance between the
elementalist skills, but bring them more in-line with the power vs cost
ratios of other skill-lines.

Dualinity · Sep 01, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

lol kinda funny how u talk about energy gaining etc, personally i just think it is a great way to get energy, and as mentioned before i think changing the recharge time is a great thing to do, all i want is that they dont nerf it as bad as Protective bond, caus that is overreacting

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

The more powerful a spell is, the more easy it should be able to stop it. This spell is hell of powerful and it is hell of easy to stop. So it might be overpowered, but it is not out of balance. Therefore NO nerfing needed.

FrogDevourer · Sep 01, 2005, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

The more powerful a spell is, the more easy it should be able to stop it. This spell is hell of powerful and it is hell of easy to stop. So it might be overpowered, but it is not out of balance. Therefore NO nerfing needed.

Yet another player who's using a mind-numbing smiter and doesn't want his precious build balanced?

Anyway, this thread is about fixing or improving E.R which has been shown to be much more powerful than other energy skills. Again, and again the fact that you can strip it doesn't make this skill balanced. If you disagree with this, feel free to use the search button and to review other threads discussing about the balance of E.R and to bump them with new arguments. Please keep this thread on topic (improved Ether Renewal) instead of posting stupid statements you cannot backup.

Kahan · Sep 01, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmo567

Just so you know IxChel, I agree with you 100%.

90% of the tombs groups are 2 W/R or W/E, 2 E/Mo, 3 monks then A Mes/Nec or a Nec/Mes

Gets boring very fast...

W/R in tomb ? Can you say me what is their skills setting please ?
I read a lot of threads here from high ranking guild who said W/R are the worst /X for a warrior and Tiger fury is useless compaired to frenzy.
Is it for frozen soil ? but rangers are better for using spirit.
I believed that W/Mo were allmighty in pvp...
Thanks